Aidas, Elblaus, Dorbek and Kärk families

[Miralda]

Hi,

I'm trying to find the address where my grandfather lived in Pärnu. His name is Elmar Johannes Aidas and was born in 06 june 1905. He grew up in Pärnu but moved to Tallin before he came to Sweden in 1945.

So how can I find this information? Are there any city archives of Pärnu I can contact? And in that case what is there a web-address/phone nr etc? Or is there any other way to find out?

He also studied at Tartu university, are there any records of their students I can look up? I want to find out as much as possible about his life before he came to Sweden, but I'm unsure of what archives/institutions and other sources I should use to find information. Any help would be appreciated!

(I wasn't sure where to post this since my estonian is very limited.)

[Arvo.Jägel]

From Tartu University students search:
http://www.eha.ee/andmed/search.php?typ ... 65&alates=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can't translate all fields, thereby just ask - I hope someone knows common english better.

You can search for his birth record in online archive (needs free registration), Pärnu records of that are located at
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/explorer.php?tid=1 ... bbab3b67e0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can always send information query to Estonian National Archives; what more information you provide, then better answer you can get:
http://www.ra.ee/vau/index.php?page=Arc ... nOrderPage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Justus]

Hi!
Elmar Johannes Aidas is http://www.geni.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; too
http://www.geni.com/search?search_type= ... nnes+Aidas+" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Miralda]

Thank you Arvo!

I will write to the estonian national archive and see if I can order some information. But on the page with his record at Tartu university, I understand that it says "fathers occupation", but what does it say, is he a city secretary? And "Kool" is that what school he went to before the university?

And Justus, thanks but I created that page (then it was merged with another profile.)

[Arvo.Jägel]

Like I said, my common english is very weak, but I'll try; hopefully someone helps with better translation.

From estonian 'vallasekretär' should translate about as 'secretary of parish'. His birth place is 'Kaisma vald' - 'Kaisma parish'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisma_Parish" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
His birth record could be found in 'Pärnu-Jakobi kogudus' or in 'Vändra kogudus' records (I'm not sure, where Kaisma belonged; first quick look didn't result in required event though).
Look also for location of Kaisma here:
http://www.mois.ee/kihel/pjaagupi.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
School name is 'Pärnu Linna Ühisgümnaasium'. Some history of it can be found (in estonian):
http://www.yhis.parnu.ee/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=53" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Miralda]

Thank you! I found his birth record here http://www.ra.ee/dgs/_purl.php?shc=EAA.1280.1.223:109 in the Pärnu-Jakobi kogudus book. Is that what you meant, or is there a birth certificate to look up with more information? Also, can you read what is the birthplace of his parents Jüri and Helene?

And in the record from Tartu, what does "Eriala" mean? The numbers 25, 34 and 37, are those what years he went to Tartu University?

[Arvo.Jägel]

This is church personal book with family data (quite informative source), birth records are in another book. But I see here birth date as '20/V' (May, 20th) - this is by 'old' (Julian) calendar and we need to look for this date (I missed calendar difference previously).
His birth record in german:
Saaga EAA.1280.1.194:338?46,930,876,532,0
and duplicate in russian:
Saaga EAA.1280.1.216:226?1941,2314,1567,740,0

Birth place of Jüri is Tänassilma manor in Viljandi [Fellin] parish; Helene is born by Pärsti [Perst] manor in same parish, located here:
http://www.mois.ee/english/parish/viljandi.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For their personal books and birth records you need search in Viljandi records then.

Their marriage record (in russian):
Saaga EAA.1280.1.213:16?2005,1821,1841,270,0
and more informative (in german):
Saaga EAA.1280.1.220:156?157,2551,3476,340,0

'Eriala' means speciality, 'agr' is probably 'agronomy', numbers can mean years (1925 an so on).

[Miralda]

Ah, I was wondering why it said his birth was 20th of May... but of course the calendar is different..

So the birth certificate gives information of parents names and witnesses/godparents I guess? What else does it say? What is the word "Seheike" (or something) before "Jüri Aidas"?

Oh, that's interesting to know where his parents were born! I had heard there was some connection to Viljandi. But when it says Tänassilma, would he have lived/worked at the manor or in the settlements around?

And does it say anything more about them in their marriage record?

Agronomy is right because he became an agronomist. So I guess he went to gümnaasium until 1925 and started at Tartu the same year. But studying until 1934 or 1937 sounds like a long time!

Saaga is down again so I will have to wait to search in Viljandi..

[Arvo.Jägel]

Saaga is down ATM and I cannot look, what exactly is written in birth record.

What about Tänassilma, then most probably he is not connected to manor; it is just note about place (region), where he come from. I didn't express myself clearly

We had here two, sometimes conflicting administrative divison systems.

First there was church based one - praostkond - kihelkond (kogudus) - mõis - küla in estonian, should be about deanery - parish (congregation) - manor - village in english. Church books (which are congregation centric) usually follow such schema, although sometimes (in older books) manors and/or villages are not noted.

Then there was (is) civil system - maakond - vald - küla in estonian, this is probably county - parish - village (or county - municipality - village) in english, where county is loosely related to deanery and parish (municipality) often corresponds to manor. Many newer sources usually follow such division.

Often historical texts and notes (and census records) are based on mixed division like county - parish - manor/municipality - village.

[Arvo.Jägel]

In Helmar birth record his father Jüri was tagged as Schreiber (Писарь in russian) - most likely secretary in english. From babylon translator:

Schreiber - writer, author, one who writes, scribe; secretary, office clerk, one who performs administrative work in an office or organization

[Miralda]

Ok, thanks for the explanation between the different systems for regions. That will be good to remember when I'm searching for things.

Ah, so secretary again, just like the Tartu records.

Also, I have a question on how to use the search system in the Saaga portal. I'm trying to find more information about this Jüri Aidas, so I use the site
http://ais.ra.ee/, type in Aidas, and I get a lot of results. So then I go to Saaga and type in the reference code in the search box,
but it only says it can't find the document? Why is that? How can I see these documents that are listed in the AISi otsing page?

So if I'm trying to find Jüris birth certificate for instance, how would you do it?

[Arvo.Jägel]

Most personal documents in AIS are not digitised. It is easy to chek - open interesting record (like this) and look below information block at left - if you see "Vaata dokumenti" link (like here), then you can click on it and this navigates to digitised document. If there's no such link, then you can request duplicate (can be digital) from archive; each copy costs about 0.38 eur.

For general information it is easier to surf directly in Saaga. Most church books and census records are digitised, usually you need to know parish and manor/municipality to find needed books.

[Miralda]

Ah, I understand... I have now written to EAA and ordered some files, the staff there were really helpful!

But if you search directly in the church-books, based on parish and year, how would you know on which page to look?
The families are not in alphabetical order, are they? Or would you use the name search to find someone?

For instance, I'm trying to find my grandmothers father Peeter Dorbek, from Viljandi.
The thread I posted about his letters is here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9744" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I don't know in what year he was born, but in one of the letters he mentioned he had an 88th birthday in 1960,
so that would make me guess he was born in 1872. (Also my grandmothers name is Leida Miralda Dorbek.)

I searched the name "Dorbek" in Saaga and found a record with a Peeter Dorbek.
But I'm unsure if it's the right one. This Peeter was born in 1874 which is almost right. And he had a daughter Hilja,
(my grandmother Leida's sister) but they also listed a Herbie. Which is strange, because Hilja was married to a Herbie.
But they didn't have a brother named Herbie.

Ah, Saaga is down again! I was going to post the link to the record I was talking about..
but I'll get back with it when Saaga is back up...

Hope you or someone can help me with this puzzle!
Or maybe I should post this question under the Viljandi-forum now?

[Arvo.Jägel]

But if you search directly in the church-books, based on parish and year, how would you know on which page to look?
The families are not in alphabetical order, are they? Or would you use the name search to find someone?

Depends
Some books are in alphabetical order. Some books are alphabetical, but some families (originally not living in same parish) are at the end. Some books are grouped by farm (? - 'talu' in estonian) name, espescially older ones (before 1850). Some books are grouped by location (village). Some books are indexed and can be searched. Some books need to look from beginning to end (twice or trice ) to find anything relevant.

Or maybe I should post this question under the Viljandi-forum now?

Continue here - we can see thread history and other links, often heplful to solve puzzles.

[Miralda]

Ok, so here are the links:

Saaga EAA.1290.1.532:24
also in this one
Saaga EAA.1290.1.529:5

Could the calendar difference somehow have made Peeters birth year be listed as 1874? But it seems like to big of a difference...

[Arvo.Jägel]

I'd think that this is not right Peeter Dorbek. In addition to problems with birth year (Saaga EAA.1290.1.316:13?1284,1306,942,266,0 versus 1872 based on letters) I found following record: Saaga EAA.1256.1.654:213?226,2104,2766,372,0 - where Peeter Dorbek (born 18.05.1874) is married to Liine 22.06.1814 and divorced from her 13.07.1940. Or has your grand-grandfather been married twice?

To find him, can you give some more information (if you know of course), like when and where he did marry, names and birth years of some children (born before 1926 or so), names of other relatives and so on. If you prefer, you can write me private message - although then other users can't help.

/edit/
I likely found him. Under name Torbek however, but everything, including Miralda , matches.
Saaga EAA.1290.1.561:903?88,944,3754,1246,0

[Miralda]

That's what I suspected, that it wasn't the same Peeter. I had thought about spelling it Dorbeck, but not spelling Dorbek with a T! Although it looks like it's changing between Jüri Torbek and Peter Dorbek?

But the record you found must be the right one! Leidas and Hiljas birth years are correct. What surprises me the most is that they had more brothers and sisters.. From what I heard it was only Leida, Hilja and a younger brother or sister that died young. So from what I can read from this Peeter was married once before and had 4 children with his first wife, then she died in 1912 and he married Melanie Kärk (which is correct from what I know before). Do I read correct when I think it says they married later the same year?

So what does it say in the margin about the older siblings, something about Tallinn and 1939? Did they move?

I read that he was born in Heimthal, and parents were Jüri and Mari... Is this the Jüri listed on the same page?
And what does it say was his occupation? It looks like postbeuter or something... But I heard they should have had a country grocery store.
Also, what does it say about birthplace of Melanie Kärk? Kerotenshof?

One question leads to so many more questions!

[Arvo.Jägel]

Jüri and Mari Torbek can be found here: Saaga EAA.1286.1.385:122?622,2042,372,118,0 (in parish Paistu), Peeter is on next page. More questions, I know

Yes, Peeter and Melanie married in same year when his previous wife died. This was relatively common at these times - household needs wife, nothing to do.

Felix Johannes moved to Tallinn (Kaarli II pihtkond - I really can't translate that word, it means part of big parish) in 1939, remark is about 'parochial schein' - notice/certificate to another parish.
Elmar Eberhard moved to Karksi parish in 1936. You can find some documents at these years, but not likely - these are less than 75 years ago and most documents are not public. Yet.

This 'Post...' whatever 'Jakob' can be related to Melanies father - it is needed to find her family too. Her birth place looks like Kerstenshof - Kärstna manor in Helme parish. More questions

[Miralda]

Thank you! But I'm a little confused by all the other names on the page around Jüri and Mari, are they Jüris siblings?
And are Jüris parents listed somewhere? It's hard to read if it's the siblings and/or the siblings new families as well..

[Arvo.Jägel]

I would look at birth records ('sünnimeetrika') for Jüris birth at 6th mai 1827 (and for other persons births on same page, esp Andres *1822 and Peeter *1839 above). From these pages (incl previous and next) I can't see, who's who exactly (Andres, Peeter, Jüri may be related). Same surname doesn't always mean that they are relatives.

Of course you need to find Torbek records on previous book, which fortunately is indexed Older books apparently are not indexed, that means you have to search them manually.

Atleast you have plenty sources to look into. For many parishes many years are just missing.

[whosol]

And what does it say was his occupation? It looks like postbeuter or something...

This 'Post...' whatever 'Jakob' can be related to Melanies father

I think it applies for Peter - Postbeamter, meaning he was a post office clerk.

[Miralda]

Thanks whosol and Arvo! He might have been a post office clerk also..

I found Jüri's family here: Saaga EAA.1286.1.369:183
But it doesn't mention his parents... I guess I will have to look in an older book for that.
And I will look on the pages with Andres and Peeters families again to see if they could be his brothers...

So the nimreg page with the indexed names is only for the more "recent" books?
Have the books been indexed systematically or by people who have searched for these people before?

[Miralda]

Also, on the page above.. what does it say before Jüris name, "Runoft"? I guess it is his occupation, but what does it mean?

And what are the abbreviations/symbols/letters before every person... does it mean son or a daughter?

[Arvo.Jägel]

Knecht - 'sulane' in estonian - possibly 'farm hand' in english?
http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Knecht.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Other abbreviations (in nice old german handwriting):
Wb - Weib - Wife
T - Tochter - daughter
S - Sohn - son

About indexing - most later books are indexed, earlier not. Like you can see here - in some books you can search, in some not:
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/explorer.php?tid=1 ... a24cf93830" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course indexes have errors Sometimes page number doesn't match, sometimes some names are incorrectly recorded and so on.

[Miralda]

So I´m trying to find more information on my great grandmother Melanie Kärk (born 1888). And if her birthplace is Kerstenshof according to this document: Saaga EAA.1290.1.561:903 and she was born in Helme parish, this is the only record on Kärk I find (just by searching with http://www.ra.ee/dgs/addon/nimreg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Saaga EAA.1296.1.427:25
But I find no Melanie on this page...

Maybe someone can give me a hint of how and where to continue searching?

[arkin]

Pity for you, but they were Greek Orthodox family
One track I found is here

Latinized version can be like that:
Jakob Joachim's (Juhan?) son Kärk 64 yr
his wife Elisaveta (Liisa?) Matvei's (Madis?) daughter 61
their children:
Anna? 34
Maria? 31
Melanie 22

[tilulilu]

Melanie birth Saaga EAA.1974.1.15:156?98,405,2248,408,0
Melanie family: father Jakov
mother Elisaveta
sisters Anna, Maria, Elena
brother Joann
his wife Melania (Jakov tochter)
their daughter Maria Saaga EAA.1974.1.25:7?186,1582,1028,362,0
Melanie marriage record Saaga EAA.1290.1.553:271?507,2104,3592,197,0

Airi

[Miralda]

Thank you for the quick answears!

Oh so I´m guessing greek-orthodox is bad because it´s all in russian? :-/
Unfortunately I can´t understand a thing in the records...
So what is Melanies familiy´s origin if they were greek-orthodox?
Was it common in Estonia at the time or was it only families with roots
from other eastern-European countries?

Also, those years are their ages at the time the records were made I assume?
So when Melanie was 22, her sisters were 34 and 31...
and I just have to calculate their birth-years from Melanies..

In their marriage-record I think it says something-Witwer (widow) in one column,
which would be correct since he had a wife that died the same year.
Does it say anything else about the circumstances of their marriage?
Or is it just basic info on date and place?

[whosol]

Orthodox is bad because it is more difficult to find information. Of course that's bad too if you can't read Russian.
Starting from 1840's many Estonian Lutherans converted to Greek Orthodox. There were many reasons for that, for example promises for a better life, but also because it was the state religion of Tsarist Russia. Otherwise they were just ordinary Estonians.

Yes you have to calculate their birthdates from the year of the document, that is 1905. Her parents might have been Lutherans by birth, depending on their conversion time.

In the marriage record there are the places of resident for both, then their names, then religion (both were Lutherans), then parents, then family status (Peter is widow, Melanie single), then date of birth, then the dates of public announcments of the marriage, then the date and place of marriage and the name of the priest (in the church by J. Lattik), then remarks or notes (listing related documents from other institutions), then p.B which is short for Personalbuch, and lastly I think money paid and date of the payment (5 Rubels).

[Katsa]

This should be the birth record of Melanie Saaga EAA.1974.1.15:156?178,360,2148,392,0.
It says, that the daughter Melanie or simply Maali was born to their parents - father greek orthodox Jakob Kärk, Annus's son, peasant of the Pöögle (Böcklershof) area, Karksi parish and mother greek orthodox Elisaveta (most likely simply Liisu or Liiso), Mats's daughter. It seems that the family originated from Pöögle and moved some time to Kärstna (Kerstenhof), otherwise they should have been members of Karksi Greek Orthodox Congregation, not of Suislepa.